30 June 2008

TMI Tuesday

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TMI Tuesday
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GACK! TMI Tuesday Marriage Edition?? This is a terrible TMI Tuesday for me to do right now because my views are so distorted with anger, disappointment and disinterest. I'm going to do my best to set my current situation aside and answer based on overall experience - which likely isn't much better ...

1. Do you believe in marriage?

I struggle with this question. I believe that many people put far too much emphasis on marriage. In reality, it is nothing more than a legal process which allows couples to gain additional benefits through government, employers, etc. and allows for formal recognition of a personal commitment. In my world, it's a legal agreement - the commitment between two (or more) people is something else entirely and doesn't require the legal acknowledgment.

2. What is marriage to you?

A legally acknowledged partnership between two people. I honestly do believe that the personal commitment between people is something other than marriage - something far greater in scope and meaning than the legal documentation.

3. If you are married, why did you do it? If you are not, why have you not married?

I am currently married - for the third time. I cannot imagine doing it again. The first time I got married, I was a 22 year old, self loathing young woman who believed that if I didn't accept the marriage "proposal" of a man I'd know only six weeks, I might never have another opportunity to get married. Two years later, my self esteem and personal integrity had taken a HUGE hit and the first marriage was over.

Second time was within a year of the first one ending. Again, it was for all of the wrong reasons and ended in my husband's suicide just 4 months later. And again, my self esteem and personal integrity took a HUGE hit.

I waited for 16 years before doing it the third time, and I'd have been smart to have waited a few more. I was convinced that this old flame rekindled was my last opportunity to provide a father figure for my son. Who would possibly want to marry a 41 year old woman who had been married twice, one of those marriages so bad her husband had to commit suicide to get out, and who had a bi-racial child out of wedlock? There wasn't a line forming - I settled.

As I said in the beginning of this answer, I cannot imagine doing it again.

4. Do you believe in divorce?

Being that I answered #2 in the way I did, there should be no surprise that I see divorce as being nothing more than the dissolving of the legal partnership.

5. If you are divorced, why did you do it? If you have not, are there certain circumstances under which you would agree to a divorce?

Again, no surprise here. Anyone who reads me knows, I'm contemplating a divorce in my current marriage. How do I justify it? The partnership is harmful, physically (sometimes indirectly) and emotionally, to both Cam and me, and my husband has shown little interest in making any permanent changes to improve the relationship.

Bonus (as in optional): [ed note:I am not trying to spark a get political debate, I am much to superficial for that]Do you believe that same sex marriages are a threat to traditional marriages?

I am always amused by this argument. Current statistics show that 50% of all HETEROSEXUAL marriages end in divorce, and 75% of all HETEROSEXUAL second marriages end in divorce. I'd say the heterosexuals are the threat to marriage, not same sex couples.

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43 comments:

Jay said...

I'm not completely opposed to marriage, but I'm not a really big fan of it either. I think that we are kind of forced into marriage not just by the tax laws, but by societal pressures.

As for same sex couples I quote the great Kinky Friedman: "I support gay marriage because I believe they have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us."

Nicey said...

I think that its best if I keep my comments to myself, being in the position I am ;)although I can see both sides. I think that you have to do whatever is right for your children. They the most important little treasures....
Laters

Nicey

Mike said...

Good and thoughtful answers

Lu' said...

My hubby is my first marriage. I don't want to divorce him, right now HA! In 24 years I have walked out 2 times for one night. I'm glad one night was all it took in those two instances for him to mend his ways. I married him while I was ending an 8 yr relationship. So I wasn't putting up with any shit in this new one :) Weighing in on the same sex marriage, I was opposed to it sometime ago for stupid stupid reasons. My dear friend Bob of Bob and Ken helped me to see the light without even trying. Right now, no legal agreement gives a couple the same "rights" as being married. Why does gay love deserve anything less than mine, it doesn't.

Karen said...

Given my history as a divorce lawyer, I should really do these questions this week. I have such a messed up view of marriage that it is crazy.

I do love how honestly you always answer.

Leighann said...

Pretty damn good answers considering what you've been through and are now going through.

Dana said...

Jay, I've seen marriage end more than a few good relationships. It seems the process just changes things and people don't ever try quite as hard to keep it good once they've won the prize.

Nicey, I think far too many people stay married thinking it is best for the kids. I grew up in one of those homes and know that it skewed my views of what marriage ought to be.

Mike, thank you!

Dana said...

Lu, I just don't feel it's my place to decide who is "worthy" of marriage and who is not.

Karen, I can only imagine how distorted your views must be.

Leighann, I can't badmouth marriage - I just haven't been very good at it!

Unknown said...

Ah Dana. It struck my heart, what you said about your second marriage. That was NOT your fault and you know it!

Yea, I'm in the same boat with you on the 3 marriages thing. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't be in a same sex marriage. Maybe it would work out better, but then again, maybe I should never be married again. I think I'm way too independent for anyone to handle.

justsomeguy said...

I like what you said about having seen marriages ruin good relationships. Marriage is totally societal and can equally be the best and/or worst thing that has ever happened to a couple. If it ain't broke....

Dana said...

Bina, you are right, logically I *do* know it, but it wasn't what I was feeling when I said yes to this marriage. And for the record, I've been told by more than one man that they felt threatened by the fact that I didn't "need" them - and here I thought that was a good thing!

Good Dr., there is a HUGE societal pressure to marry and I have often thought that the little bit of "uncertainty" involved in remaining unmarried actually benefits a relationship. People feel they always have to try to keep it working!

Real Live Lesbian said...

I'm always amused at the same sex marriage debate. I don't see anyone picketing the "drive-thru Elvis impersonator" wedding chapels in Vegas saying that they are harming the sanctity of marriage. And if sanctity is what you're protecting, then maybe that should be your first stop.

As for being married three times, I think you're just now ready for the right person. It took me a ton of women to find the right one. Maybe you've been looking in the wrong place? ;)

Knight said...

I like your answers.
I have always viewed marriage as something people do to please their families/religion, or for tax cuts. Anybody should have the right to do that. I never wanted to myself but I have to admit, those tax breaks are starting to sound mighty good.

BillyT said...

Don't settle for less than you need, or want. You are a beautiful woman that obviously has a soft and artistic eye. I came to this site originally for the HNT, but I stayed around for the story. Abuse in any form is wrong. Don't accept it. If you are not happy, get happy. You get to make your own choices. Choose to be happy. Take good care of your son, he is your legacy.

As far as the same sex marriage issue, Love is a good thing no matter what flavor of genitalia you prefer. The issue is just another example of the powers that be twisting the “Morals Du Jour” for economic gain. I don’t know how they can sleep at night. Why is it OK to send our babies off to war, but it is not OK for a man to love another man.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Johanne said...

I'm very interested here... Seems that we share many views... and some life experiences...
Hppy TMI anyway...
Adding you to my blog roll...

Dana said...

RLL, I firmly believe that heterosexual couples (said generally) have made a mockery out of marriage and it seems quite silly that they now stand in judgment. Being married? I think I just need to quit looking ...

Knight, honestly, a big part of the reason I got married this time was that in order to use my VA Loan Benefit to buy our home - and for husband's income to count - the VA required we be married. How ridiculous is that?

BillyT, thank you for the kind words, and for finding more in my blog that you find "worthy" other than the HNT. That is a HUGE compliment!

Anndi said...

Failed marriage: check!

Contemplating doing it again: check (well not the failed part, obviously)!

Fools rush in... It ends up applying to so many of us in varied contexts.

I actually do believe in marriage. My parents met late in life (in the tradiotional sense of things) and had a wonderful marriage.

Although my Honey and I aren't married (yet) and are both completely committed to each other already, we both like the idea of being married to each other. It's an emotional bond in our eyes as well as social convention. We do live in society, it's symbolism is not lost to us.

The wonderful thing is, we are all free (or should be) to decide wat path is right for us. No one should make that decision for us.

DnWormer said...

Thanks for such honesty and openness.

Anonymous said...

Good answers. I'm sorry you've had 3 bad experiences. :(

I hadn't thought about the legal contract part of it at all.

Deech said...

I loved these answers. Obviously, your perspective is different than mine. And I will admit that I may have my head up my ass because I am still caught up in the marital bliss of my third marriage. But I believe this one will last. If I tried my hardest to make the last one work...this wil be a cake walk for me.

Flyinfox_SATX

g-man said...

Interesting answers, no real shockers though. I did have to laugh at the bonus answer, excellent point!

boo said...

Frankly, I don't the government should have anything to do with marriages, ever. But, that just all goes hand in hand with my total opposition to nanny government, and governing morality. I'm married, but I would have been perfectly content not to be. I'm bisexual and polyamorous... traditional marriage has never been in the cards for me.

Dana said...

SeaRabbit, thank you! I had better get my butt over to your blog!

Anndi, although I haven't done marriage well, I certainly wouldn't want to take it away from anyone else!

mnwhr, thank YOU for being nonjudgmental and encouraging the honesty!

Dana said...

FF, I can't blame anyone but myself - I made all three choices!

Flyinfox, I may be cynical about marriage, but I really do wish the best for those who take on the challenge.

G-Man, once the heterosexuals get it right, then they can judge!

Greg C said...

Great answers Dana. It takes a lot of guts to bare all like this. I can sense your state of mind and think it is quite rational to feel the way that you do. I am only on #2 but if it ends for some reason, there won't be a #3. As for the final question. Who are we to judge. Hey I am only batting 50% here.

Professor Fate said...

I am in 100% total agreement with your bonus answer (maybe 120%).

Fortune Cookies said...

I always see you over at Jay's and Real Live Lesbian and a few others, thought I'd stop by, I'm so glad I did!
Marriage, I always was opposed to marriage, until I fell in love and got all mushy and gushy...honestly, I think that marriage today is more of an idea and historically, it was an arrangement, you give me those cows and I'll give you my daughter to marry...
I agree with you that heterosexuals are the threat to marriage, and I think it's because they don't know what a gift it is to be able to say "we're married" so they rush into it all willy-nilly. Too, because of societal pressures, they choose the wrong partner and later find they need out. There will always be a need for divorce, as long as there is marriage, but at the rates we see them? I think that is due to the rush to marry people who are ill-suited to us.

Dana said...

Boo(duh), I think it says a lot about this country that there is still such a strong tie between religion and government benefits, and I don't like what it says. As you know, I've tried to fit in the "traditional" marriage box without success. I think I need to re-evaluate what works vs. what is expected.

Greg, I have to say that the "support" I receive in this forum really does allow me to be honest. There are often people with differing views than mine, but there seems to be a mutual respect between us that allows everyone to be honest on my blog - including me!

Professor, I just can't help but think those living in glass houses should get out of the gravel pit!

Dana said...

Fortune Cookies, it's about time you got your hiney over here! *wink* Really, I'm glad you stopped by and I'm glad you enjoyed what you found!

Ms. Inconspicuous said...

I admire your openness and honesty here. I agree completely--commitment is greater than the sum of marriage papers.

captain corky said...

I married my first wife for all the wrong reasons. I lived with her for five years and then moved to Kentucky and married her and we were divorced in one year. She'll be missed.

I'm just glad I found someone who I love the second time around, but it was still a lot of work at first. I think most marriges take a lot of work and I don't know if that's such a bad thing. Makes things better in the long run.

Dana said...

Ms. I, and I admire yours as well. I don't mean to sound creepy, but your writing has given me much to think about!

Corky, I think ALL marriages take a lot of work, and I think that many people just want them to work on their own.

Vinny "Bond" Marini said...

Within a year of divorcing from a marriage that lasted 34 years the last 6 we were more room mates even though we did not share a room...but did and do share a son of whom I would not change getting married for...

Would I do it again....tough question though I have the most wonderful woman in my life...but we are both of the mind that marriage is not the result of true love...a partnership is

buffalodick said...

If you're attracted to someone, but "don't get along" don't ever marry them. Common goals, common desires, and effective communication without excessive strife probably are good things to have if you want to get/stay married. I guess that advice would help straights or gays. I don't care who marrys who, I just like the phrase "Can't we all just get along?"..

Jeff B said...

Having only been in one marraige my view are understandably different in some ways. One thing I think we agree on though is that a simple piece of paper doesn't make a marraige good or bad, it;'s the choices and commitment each person is willing to put into it.

I really hope things get better for you.

As American as Apple Pie said...

Well, I have to say I was one of those girls who dreamed about her wedding day. In fact, I love weddings. However, I wish I would have waited a bit longer. I was barely 20 when Apple Hubby and I tied the knot. I can understand your answers, though.

Big Kahuna said...

Hey Dana,

Kahuna is wondering what the wedding slant on these questions is as well :-)

That Babushka can sure be sneaky

Neil Benson said...

I have a partner, not a wife. But we've been together 11 years and now we share ownership of a house. It feels like I'm more married now then when I had a relationship with the marriage certificate. It's not the legal ceremony with a piece of paper it's the nature of the relationship that's critical.

Anonymous said...

I believe in marriage and can't wait to get to that point.!

Dana said...

Bond, as you know (I hope), you continue to be a source of strength for me. I haven't forgotten the fence!

Buff, that communication part is so critical,isn't it?

Jeff, things will get better for me when I take charge of the situation and make them better.

Dana said...

Apple, you know, I've never worn a traditional wedding dress. Maybe that's my problem?

Big Kahuna, you know, I did kind of shake my head when I read them. They were excellent questions though!

Neil, I've always thought that buying a home together took more of a commitment than getting married. What does that say about my skewed views.

Dana said...

Birdman, welcome back! I've been wondering where the heck you were! I hope you find that your marriage is exactly what you dreamed it would be!

Vinny "Bond" Marini said...

I know and will continue to be .... and feel you will be there if/when I need you.

HUGS