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On occasion I find an odd phenomena in the blogsphere - random blogs that I read have a common theme. Recently, there was a crying theme. Another Suburban Mom talked about the manipulative crying of a co-worker and Karen talked about her random tear generator being in overtime mode. It was fascinating reading the two different perspectives and the comments that followed.
ASM's rant was one of what she perceives to be the manipulative behavior of women who cry at work. She said:
I took issue with this statement because I feel the idea that women must act more like men (my interpretation of her statement) to be effective in management is a setback to women as a group. We aren't men. We aren't wired the same as men. We aren't supposed to be like men. I would argue that when we act like men - or buy into the idea that if we were more like men our value in the workplace would increase - we actually do more harm to women as a group than if we just cried once in a while.
Karen's post was from the perspective of unwanted tears - or tears that flowed due to what might be perceived as relatively minor issues. Now, Karen has been going through some significant medical issues and has felt the need to "act tough" (again, my words, not hers) and I think one of her commenters hit the nail on the head. Aunt Becky wrote:
Boy, do I identify with this, and it usually happens when I've been forced to try to "act like a man."
Look, women (said generally) are emotional creatures. It's how we are wired. It is - in my opinion - the balance, the compliment, to men. When we get stuck in this thought that being more like men is of greater value to the workplace (something I believe is generated more by women than men), or to society generally, we just perpetuate the problematic thinking.
The problem isn't that women are sometimes more emotional than men, the issue is thatother women society sees that as a weakness rather than a strength.
On occasion I find an odd phenomena in the blogsphere - random blogs that I read have a common theme. Recently, there was a crying theme. Another Suburban Mom talked about the manipulative crying of a co-worker and Karen talked about her random tear generator being in overtime mode. It was fascinating reading the two different perspectives and the comments that followed.ASM's rant was one of what she perceives to be the manipulative behavior of women who cry at work. She said:
I think when women cry at work that it honestly sets us all back as a group. It perpetuates the myth that women are not good in management because we are 'emotional' and can't handle the stress.
I took issue with this statement because I feel the idea that women must act more like men (my interpretation of her statement) to be effective in management is a setback to women as a group. We aren't men. We aren't wired the same as men. We aren't supposed to be like men. I would argue that when we act like men - or buy into the idea that if we were more like men our value in the workplace would increase - we actually do more harm to women as a group than if we just cried once in a while.
Karen's post was from the perspective of unwanted tears - or tears that flowed due to what might be perceived as relatively minor issues. Now, Karen has been going through some significant medical issues and has felt the need to "act tough" (again, my words, not hers) and I think one of her commenters hit the nail on the head. Aunt Becky wrote:
I find that after I've repressed some emotion for a time, it comes burbling out my eyeballs. And while it embarrasses me, I need to be okay with it.
Boy, do I identify with this, and it usually happens when I've been forced to try to "act like a man."
Look, women (said generally) are emotional creatures. It's how we are wired. It is - in my opinion - the balance, the compliment, to men. When we get stuck in this thought that being more like men is of greater value to the workplace (something I believe is generated more by women than men), or to society generally, we just perpetuate the problematic thinking.
The problem isn't that women are sometimes more emotional than men, the issue is that
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34 comments:
I am not against crying in the workplace if something truly bad happens. I also do not advocate women acting like men. We are different people and those differences should be respected.
However, I am going to say that about 98% of the crying I have seen in the workplace is about using tears to be manipulative.
I can't tell you how many people stop crying on a dime when you say, "Crying is not going to get you your own way."
I have also seen the same people have someone give into them. As soon as they get what they want, the crying mysteriously stops and I hear them bragging about it in the ladies room.
Aw hell, and here I was thinking that you were going to say something about the NY Yankee fan who paid 2600 bucks to sit behind home plate only to watch the Cleveland Indians kick their ass (22 to 2) all over the place. :)
If some women crying sets the group back, then does the some who totally kick ass and take names move it forward? I think that it is all relative to where you are focused.
Dana, if acting like a MAN is a bummer for the average woman. How much of a bummer is it for us. LOL You are right, women are more emotional then men. That's why men's lives are a living hell. Tears! Every woman's secret weapon for destroying men's self control. The bottom line in the war of the sexes is that each of us must do what we have to do to win the day. Sad to say, you women have the nuclear option, men don't.
Being able to show one's emotions is a strength. I tell my my 14 year old son that he should never be ashamed to cry.
Of course, when he sheds a tear because his 44 year old, two pack a day dad, just kicked his ass on the basketball court, I think that's a bit much....and yet, kinda funny as well. Cheers!!
I am certainly an emotional creature. I don't mind crying, but crying at nothing makes me crazy. It is like my brain and my emotions are in total disconnect.
I don't think tears in the work place are always manipulative. Sometimes they are just raw emotion. When I litigated custody cases I felt that emotion from time to time.
I onced watched am opening argument given by a young female lawyer in a civil action stemming from a fire. When she described the burns, the scars and the pain her client lived with, she got choked up and teary. Some people thought she was being manipulative, but I to me she just seemed nervous and honest. Those tears worked professionally and the case was settled before the jury heard much testimony.
I take issue with crying in general, especially in public.
I think there's a time and place to cry, and that time and place is at home or in private.
Maybe I'm harsh, but I see people crying and I want to tell them to fucking suck it up. Crying does no good and serves no purpose.
I read a science article that said that crying is necessary to rid the body of certain stress chemicals.
and no onions aren't the same :)
ASM, I know that your greatest concern is women using tears as a tool, and we agree on that. But isn't it our interpretation of the crying (right or wrong) that differentiates true emotion from manipulation?
g-man, now that would have been a good post! I think that we are individuals and expecting everyone to act the same - or worse yet, act like another group entirely - is just plain wrong.
Doomed, I've been accused of using tears as a manipulative tool in arguments with husband, and nothing could be further from the truth. For me it really is about an inability to put feelings into words and having them spill out.
Matt-Man, I agree, and men suffer from the same assumptions - that crying means they are weak.
Karen, I don't believe that tears in the workplace are usually manipulative and maybe that has more to do with the fact that I don't use them in a manipulative way, therefor make the assumption that most women do not use them in that way.
M, wow! Really? If that's how you want to handle your tears, then all the power to you, but to expect that of others? That would be like me telling you to "act human" and cry in public.
Funny you should mention this. I woke up crying today because of a terribly emotional dream I had.
I've cried at work a few times, but I went outside where no one could see me. It was when my ex boss was sexually harrassing me and I thought I was going to be fired. I HAD to report him and I didn't want to because I knew what would happen. Crying at work, for men and women is okay.
Unless, you are like the cry baby woman that used to be my supervisor that crys any time she gets in trouble and she has learned she gets her way when she DOES cry.
I think all people have learned that crying is a sign of weakness, and to me, that is just sad. But to say a woman is weak because she crys, that is just bullshit.
(I wish I knew how to bold and italicize in comments).
I think it's a matter of knowing who the person doing the crying is and knowing whether or not she's (or he's) genuine. We've all had coworkers who we know are lying, fake, manipulative people. When we see them crying in a staff meeting were we're all getting clobbered for sucking at our jobs, we immediately think that person crying is faking it.
But, people we've known for a long time and we know that they aren't the manipulative type start crying, we know that it's not being done for dramatic purposes.
Maybe we shouldn't all be so cynical! LOL
My biggest problem with crying at the workplace is that it just makes everybody uncomfortable. Especially if we think the crying is over something little and no big deal. Although we all know that people can be dealing with lots of stuff and you never know what might be the last straw. But still, when someone starts crying it's like handing everyone else a piece of awkward cake.
I have nothing against crying, nor do I believe woman should need to act like men in order to be taken seriously.
But, I do not like manipulation. Since there are some men especially in my workplace that do not know what to do with a crying woman, it is easy for some women to use it to their advantage. For me, this is no different than when a man uses their height and angry voice to try to manipulate me into getting what they want. These both fall into the same category - someone trying to use something to their advantage to get what they want.
Just as that guy who yells at me and tries to play the "big mean guy" card doesn't get what they want, a woman who is crying in effort to get what she wants is not going to get it with me.
We are all adults in the workplace. Getting bad news or having a stressful day may generate an emotional response for a man or a woman. We're all human. One has to be careful that their response cannot be construed as manipulative. Because, while I would like to believe everyone is honest and genuine and altruistic, that, unfortunately, isn't always the case.
Hammer, I would not be surprised to learn this is true. I think I need to do a little research! And if you wear contacts, onions don't make you cry anyway.
Bina, I have had an emotional response at work - like when I was let go from my last job. I tried desperately to keep the tears in check but couldn't do it. I was overwhelmed with emotion. I did apologize to the office manager and my boss who were both in the room and tried to explain that many thoughts were going through my mind at the time. Fortunately, they were both understanding and I was able to gain "control" and put the smiling face back on as I emptied my desk and left.
Was I weak? Was I being manipulative? Nope! Just overwhelmed with the unexpected news and the uncertainty of where things would go from there.
Jay, I agree that having some insight into the person outside of work can help us in determining the nature of the tears and that crying (just as anger) makes most people uncomfortable, but to take that and say that any crying in the workplace sets all women back seems a gigantic leap to me.
Emmy, I am not a fan of manipulation in any form either. Crying, bullying, using good looks and charisma to sway people's thinking - yes, those are all devious and unwelcome behaviors. Although I believe there is some responsibility on the part of the person showing the emotion to be aware of how that might be interpreted, I also feel there is a responsibility on the person interpreting the emotion to be aware of their own bias.
Crying, in my humble opinion, does not necessarily make one less of an adult, nor should it be seen as something that sets women back.
I am not going to comment on whether women should or should not cry in the workplace. It is up to each person to do what feels right to them. I can only comment on how crying in the workplace might be interpreted by other men and women in the workplace and how it may serve their interests. Like many other commenters have pointed out, we are still living in a society where crying is interpreted as weakness. That's a fact. It is almost irrelevant whether that is a good thing or not. The fact is if you cry in the workplace, people may feel sorry for you but they won't respect you. This is not just some kind of a vast male conspiracy. Even women are a part of this culture of strength and stoicism. Remember when the Bachelor Jason Mesnick cried in the final episode? Some women thought it was great that he was able to show his emotions. When the push came to shove however, I bet ultimately very few women would want to marry a guy like that. Most women look for men who can be strong and resilient in the face of crisis and crying just doesn't fit that image. Women in the workplace have to play it by the same rules the society (men and women together) has created. Hillary Clinton may have scored some points on the campaign trail by shedding a few tears but if she cried on TV a few too many times, she would lose a lot of respect. I am not saying that's how it should be, but like it or not that's the way it is.
Crying is not the problem. It is the manipulative nature behind the crying.
Now, let me get a tissue so I can finish Home Makeover...
Stormy, I actually said in my post that I don't believe the image of crying as a weakness is perpetuated by men - just look at the comments here - it's clearly a hot button for women.
And I'm not saying that crying isn't seen as a weakness and manipulative, I am saying that as long as we continue to assume that is what it is, it will never change. We can change it, or we can compromise who we are and be sucked into the "we need to act more like men" mindset.
Bond, I would argue that it is the ASSUMPTION that crying is manipulative in nature that is the problem.
I was a little taken aback by M's comment. And I guess I admire her for that kind of control. But am a bit saddened to be judged for not having that same type of control.
I am a *very* emotional girl. It bothers me at times that I am SUCH a girl. When I'm angry, upset, frustrated- I tend to get teary and it's NOT something I can help. But you can bet I try. It's uncomfortable to cry in public, esp when you don't want to be crying!
Great topic. And I agree with you on what you have said.
Vixen, I was surprised by M's comment as well but have to wonder how many people believe just as she does but are just too polite to say it (thank you M for being so blatantly honest).
Like you, I tend to be quite emotional (probably even less expected from someone like me who doesn't look "typically" girlie) and it is in no way manipulative - it is INVOLUNTARY and has far more to do with the depth of emotion that I feel than trying to sway anyone's response. It's just me, and although I try to temper it, I'm not often successful.
Holy crap, I was going to post about this, too!
I was surprised a couple of years ago when my mom made a comment about me being unemotional and then my husband agreed with her. I thought about all of the times that I wanted to cry and didn't feel like it was the appropriate time or place. And I thought about all of the emotions that I suppress to keep from losing my control in front of everyone.
Which, led me to think about why I thought I had to suppress my emotions at all when I'm in the company of my family and something is truly upsetting me? I haven't figured out the answer yet but I was just kind of astounded at the number of posts being dedicated to crying lately.
It's unprofessional.
Any extreme is unprofessional be it crying or yelling.
Ms Undecided, it's the blogsphere karma I tell you! I see it happen every once in a while and figured I had better take advantage of it! I think it is difficult to segment emotions - to show them some places and not others - and I wonder how we became a society that dictated stuffing emotions.
Turnbaby, so should all extreme emotions be laid to rest when we walk through the workplace door including those seen as "positive" emotions (joy, happiness, etc.)? And who gets to decide what is extreme? What I believe is extreme and what someone else sees as extreme are bound to be very different places on the spectrum.
I think I sort of fell off the femenist bandwagon when I got the impression that all that won freedom was so that we could be more like men. That camp, to me, is buying into the notion that men ARE better, men are the rule and women the exception. And, I absolutely disagree. I had hoped that the goal was to say, somethign like, we are women, we birth and nurture babies and we cry and we make homes, yet we are valued, and so are our tears, and we are strong and capable and 50%, not the exception. We've accepted that the workplace should be "male" and I have to wonder what it would look like if it were male and female.
Librarian Lee, as is so often the case, you said what I was trying to say far better than I said it! Equality in the workplace does not mean we act like men, it means that we are valued the same as men even though our contributions and strengths may look very different than those of men.
I don't want to be a feminist if it means I have to act like a man in order to be valued.
[Late coming in as usual but just got back from my trip and am catching up...]
I get in lots of trouble as a woman in the South because I rarely cry. About ANYTHING. I'm wired to go glacial in a crisis, and people think I'm mentally challenged or something. So any occasion that forces tears from me is a welcome one. I was relieved to reach for the Kleenex at my brother-in-law's funeral yesterday and today.
That having been said, I find it relatively easy to spot the crybabies -- people who use it to manipulate. That leads, of course, to ignoring them on the assumption that they're just crying wolf, and running the risk of being insensitive to a genuine issue.
And the most recent Presidential election did bring out the "new" sexism: When Hilary Clinton shed tears, she was accused of manipulation, but when some other male politicians cried, they were viewed as "sensitive" and "human." So whattya gonna do??
My exhusband took all my tears away. I wish they would come back more often, always a little refreshing when they spring out through my eyeballs.
I had a male boss who cried the day after September 11th while he was reading a communication memo about the attacks to our work group. I think everyone could relate to his pain and seeing him open up like that made everyone feel closer.
Currently I have a female boss and I respect her because she does a good job and is more than fair. She's never cried in front of me and thankfully she's never acted like a dude.
If women want to cry at work, go to the bathroom and do it.
Crying at your desk, in front of colleagues? Nah. That's not on.
A phrase like "turning on the waterworks" didn't materialise out of thin air. Women are more emotional, but you ARE also more manipulative.
You know you are.
Most times you work that in your favour. And then there are times that it bites you in the ass. You can't have it both ways.
I find it interesting that people are coming at this from the point of view that crying is a *choice*. I doubt most of us who cry honest tears would choose to do so in a situation where it may be inappropriate. Tears happen. People feel.
Volly, well, I know what I'm going to do ... cry, because if it comes, not matter how hard I try to keep it under wraps, there is little that can be done to recover.
Moose, I'll share some of mine. At times they become quite the embarrassment.
Corky, a good balance in a manager - whether male or female - is a great thing!
Leonhart, seriously? You think all women cry to be manipulative? Although that might be your experience, I guarantee you it is NOT the case.
Biscuit, I feel much the same way. As one of my readers who sent me an email said, "When I have intense emotions, and cannot find the words to convey those emotions clearly, it seems that they then come out as crying and it is in NO WAY trying to be manipulative. Heck, I wish I could be stoic, calm, cool and collective instead of red and teary-eyed, unable to breathe because my nose is all stuffed up due to the tears and have my make-up running down my face. It doesn't help me make my point with other people, I look like crap and it pisses me off when I do this."
Whoa there, manipulating my words!
Nowhere did I say ALL women cry to be manipulative.
You've drawn a false syllogism out of my comment.
I'll put it more plainly:
I don't doubt anyone's need - male or female - to occasionally cry.
I do doubt anyone that cries in front of other people. Fair enough if they just received a phone call with bad news. But just sitting there and suddenly bawling their eyes out?
That smacks of attention-seeking to me. And everyone has met someone just like that (and if you haven't, it means you probably ARE that person).
I agree with so much that is said here and in your other posting about feminism. I don't want to be more like a man....I love men because they are NOT like me!!! I agree that women need to be valued for what they are....
Crying....I am not one that cries easily. Has nothing to do with male/female expectations or behavior. It has to do with growing up in a home where emotion (unless it was anger) was not welcomed. My mother was emotionless....and expected it from her children. If we cried, she got mad and told us to shut up or she would give us something to really cry about.....Consequently I learned at an early age to shut the tears off....like Pavlov's dog, that has been a hard habit to break. So, my interior is raging with emotion. I will say that as I have gotten older, tears come more easily. And I don't hold them back if I am in a situation where I feel safe....
Manipulation....yep! I have witnessed females (and I suppose men do it too)countless times turn on the tears to manipulate. It turns my stomach. Somewhere along the line women have learned that men have a hard time handling tears, so they use this knowledge to their advantage. Other women are rarely fooled by this ploy.....But I have also seen women try the same ploy with other females....I remember one case of a co worker who cried weekly. At first we all felt bad for her but soon realized it was for show and done so we would take up her slack....unfortunately it got to a point where we avoided her at all cost and made for a stressful working situation.
I've almost never cried at work, altho to be honest, I rarely cry. Especially in front of people. I look too ugly when I cry, you know?
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