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I'm sure most of you heard the story of Madlyn Primoff - the lawyer/mother from an affluent New York suburb who ordered her bickering 10 and 12-year-old daughters out of her car in a business district three miles from their home, and drove off. She was charged with child endangerment and spent the night in jail.
Yesterday, Another Suburban Mom wrote about a British government study that is looking into fining parents for their children's misbehavior in the classroom - forcing them to “share the responsibility for maintaining discipline” through financial punishment.
What is a parent to do? In the Madlyn Primoff case you have a mother who is attempting to make a point with children that are old enough to understand consequences for their actions, yet the government steps in and calls it child endangerment. How far is the U.S. from the financially motivated and punitive actions being considered by the British government? Do you want me to discipline my child(ren) or do you want to punish me for not doing it the government's way?
I should have some freedom in raising my child the way I feel is fit (withing the realm of reality - I'm not talking about physical abuse, neglect, etc. here). The government wants me to be a "good" parent, but then punishes me if I take a natural consequences approach like Madlyn Primoff did?
Quite frankly, (and without knowing the full details of the Primoff case), I'd say the real criminals in this situation were the couple who picked up the 10-year old girl, took her out for ice cream, then decided this was a matter best handled by the police rather than one to be handled in a community/neighborly way. They took it upon themselves to be judge and jury for Primoff's actions rather than phoning her, hearing her side of the story and offering a little empathy (empathy does belong in the community, not in the Supreme Court). It is "criminal" that so many people are quick to call the authorities, escalating a problem that could be handled in a much less intrusive manner.
I'm guessing most of you will see this in one of three ways:
What do you think? Child endangerment? Natural consequences? Or somewhere in between?
I'm sure most of you heard the story of Madlyn Primoff - the lawyer/mother from an affluent New York suburb who ordered her bickering 10 and 12-year-old daughters out of her car in a business district three miles from their home, and drove off. She was charged with child endangerment and spent the night in jail.Yesterday, Another Suburban Mom wrote about a British government study that is looking into fining parents for their children's misbehavior in the classroom - forcing them to “share the responsibility for maintaining discipline” through financial punishment.
Parents can be fined the equivalent of $75 if their kids are caught in a public place without a good reason within the first five days of being suspended or expelled. The fine doubles if it’s not paid within a month. And — parents have to be interviewed by teachers before their child is allowed to return to school.
Schools can also require parents of children who are misbehaving to take parenting classes. If they don’t attend, they can be fined up to $1,500.
What is a parent to do? In the Madlyn Primoff case you have a mother who is attempting to make a point with children that are old enough to understand consequences for their actions, yet the government steps in and calls it child endangerment. How far is the U.S. from the financially motivated and punitive actions being considered by the British government? Do you want me to discipline my child(ren) or do you want to punish me for not doing it the government's way?
I should have some freedom in raising my child the way I feel is fit (withing the realm of reality - I'm not talking about physical abuse, neglect, etc. here). The government wants me to be a "good" parent, but then punishes me if I take a natural consequences approach like Madlyn Primoff did?Quite frankly, (and without knowing the full details of the Primoff case), I'd say the real criminals in this situation were the couple who picked up the 10-year old girl, took her out for ice cream, then decided this was a matter best handled by the police rather than one to be handled in a community/neighborly way. They took it upon themselves to be judge and jury for Primoff's actions rather than phoning her, hearing her side of the story and offering a little empathy (empathy does belong in the community, not in the Supreme Court). It is "criminal" that so many people are quick to call the authorities, escalating a problem that could be handled in a much less intrusive manner.
I'm guessing most of you will see this in one of three ways:
- This is appalling, neglectful, and abusive parenting. A well-to-do mom - an attorney - is completely lacking in such basic parenting skills? She should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law and her parental rights should be questioned.
- What's the big deal? The girls are 10 and 12, not toddlers. They were left in an area they were familiar with and within walking distance of their home. So a couple of tweens with attitude are held accountable for their behavior and have to walk home - maybe they'll learn a lesson.
- I'm torn. I can understand reaching this level of frustration as a parent, but this was just taking it a little too far.
What do you think? Child endangerment? Natural consequences? Or somewhere in between?
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14 comments:
10 and 12 years old? Are you kidding me? I left a 25 year old (ex)girlfriend at the mall cause she was being a whiny little baby butt and you should have heard all the names I was called for that! ;-)
One of the things my friends with children and I love to discuss is "at what age can the kids be left by themselves for a few hours and not have the neighbors call CPS or Nancy Grace?"
The answer is I don't know. But, making kids walk home as punishment isn't exactly being cruel. Unless you live in Manhattan and you drop them off in Newark. haha
As for the fining parents thing, well Honestly? I know a lot of people who have to be forced to be parents and be involved in their kids lives. I don't know what the answer is, but just sitting back and letting them neglect their kids and be shitty parents isn't it. There is a price to pay by society when kids are allowed to be delinquents by their parents.
I say there was no problem with letting the kids walk. Um...unless they were on highway. Or unless the kids actually didn't know how to get home. I am not sure what my sense of direction was like at that age.
With regard to fining the parents for misbehaving kids. I am ok with that. It basically happens anyway. If your kid is involved in any sort of juvenile delinquency matter, you pay the lawyer, pay the fines, pay restitution, pay for probation, drug testing, therapy, whatever the case may be.
I don't mind that happening in a school setting. It might motivate some parents (not that all need motivation) to be a parent. I don't know that it will stop a child from misbehaving, but it is worth a shot. Might bring down my property taxes if the school can generate a nice little income there. ;-)
Okay - I don't know where the kids were dropped or if the intervening individual knew the girls so i can't really comment, perhaps the person believed the girls were in danger. I don' tknow how far either. That might have been "iffy." was it dark?
But even given my doubts - I have done things like that...not nearly as often as I wish i had! I remember when the police called the first time my kidlet got picked up for curfew violation. I said, great! let her sleep there tonight and get some fear/awareness of consequences in her. I was told that i needed to pick her up in an hour or face neglect charges! Ahhh so....if you violate curfew, you get a ride in the car and mom comes to get you - end of story. Oh - let's do this again next chance we get. That was just the first example of the reality that I would be punished and held accountable and yet I had no real ability to hold a determined kid accountable. I mean, you can't handcuff 'em to the bathroom sink for very long after all. :)
I call it natural consequences....There are parents who should be forced to take parenting classes and there are examples of the government not letting parents be responsible for teaching child consequences. Such was the case I blogged about....kid refuses to take homework back to school, Mom finally says "well you have to stay after and redo it, I am not bringing it to you", teacher goes to his home to retrieve it....Where is the learning???
I vote for consequences. Too bad that they were little white girls. Otherwise, no one would have noticed them and they might have learned a lesson.
When I was a kid, "I'm pulling this car over" was no idle threat.
The nanny state is out of control.
Here in my state truant or bad kids will land a parent in jail or worse a visit from CPS..I'm in partial agreement. Parents need to be responsible...especially if they are getting welfare checks for their brood.
What's the big deal? That's where I am. These were not 2 & 4 year olds, although I must admit you can still feel like doing that with even little kids! LOL
I guess it depends on the maturity level of the child. However, their are so many variables to any situation I couldn't even begin to start here.
But, this situation, in this circumstance, I would have made their asses walk home, too. I mean, would the police rather have had her wreck due to the bickering and fighting?
When my oldest son got in trouble on the bus for about the 3rd time, and got kicked off, again, I had to plead with the principle to let me bring him to school early to help the janitor. I mean, he didn't WANT to ride the bus, so he was getting rewarded. Every day for a week, about two hours before school started, he was there emptying garbage, sweeping etc. He was in 4th grade. And I had to sign a waver in case he got hurt or some crap like that. But he didn't get kicked off the bus again!
I don't think that dropping off the kids was a wise choice to make. Yes the walk would do them good. Forty years ago dropping the kids off could have been a good choice. I just don't think it is today. As for the state putting the mother in jail. That was overdoing it. If the state wants the children taken away from the mother. She should tell the state. Here they are and here are their clothes. Let's see how the two young ladies like those foster homes or where else they might be sent.
Remember! (Real) bad parents are the reason these crappy laws were passed. The laws were an attempt to protect children who really need protection from bad parents. In turn the laws screw good parents trying to make their kids behave.
Any law that is passed in this country should be able to pass the following test. Does the law punish the guilty and protect the innocent. For example: the law against murder. You don't murder someone the law doesn't harm you. Gun laws are the exact opposite. If you carry a gun for protection which is unlawful in many areas, you are breaking the law. You have committed no harm to anyone, but are guilty. The law has made innocent citizens guilty. Many of the child protection laws make innocent citizens guilty. Sexting is making a lot of 14 year old boys and girls guilty of child pornography. Thats not what the law intended. But the law is the law. And the law many times does not follow a right and wrong philosophy.
You have brought up a topic that my husband and I talk about often.
What that woman did is so something I could see myself doing.
I'm with #2. Let the woman parent her children for god's sake! I run 5miles a day, 3miles *really* isn't that far. I know you said 'business district', that doesn't really equate to 'slums'.
Interesting discussion and comments.
The biggest problem here is that too many folks are now making it their business to do what THEY feel is the correct course of action. This then puts them in direct conflict with the parent in question. Enter in the authorities or government, and you'll get a "you should know better" type of speech, and slapped upside the head with a fine or some monetary compensation.
How do I know this?
I was turned in for child abuse by a neighbor. My oldest son was playing over at their house, and was sporting a black eye from a rousing game of football that we'd been playing the day before. It was an innocent accident, and we all knew it. However, when the mom asked my son "How'd you get that black eye?" my son answered honestly: "My dad hit me."
This simple statement got the police called on me, I was questioned, handcuffed in front of my house, taken to the station, and lectured the entire way by BOTH officers about how they would never do something like that to their kids. "That wasn't an accident, you had to have hit him."
Trust me, if I'd hit my son, I'd have broken bones, and would have dealt with a doctor's bill, as well as the charges.
Anyway, my point here is that when a community bonds together to help raise the kids, the authorities should be left out of the equation. Their definition of extreme actions is something that I try to avoid, since it's a very loose definition, and depending on whom responds, various reactions can occur. One will blow the call off as frivilous, as another one will be ready to send you to the gas chamber!
Be a responsible neighbor, and talk with each other. Communication is much more vital in raising kids than pointing a finger and assigning blame.
Mine will be short and sweet. That was about the age spread of my sister and me. We were left home alone at that age. We were allowed to go into town. We were allowed to ride our bikes with that kind of distance. This story is a bunch of bunk. I give that lady some respect.
I have no idea cuz I don't have enough info other than what I have heard on the news in bits and pieces. Exactly where they were dropped off...What did the kids tell the person that took them to the cops? Glad I could be of no help or interest in this matter. Cheers!!
Given the information thay I had, the mom did nothing wrong. That little walk would have done some good. I also thought the 'good neighbors' that stepped in were way out of line in taking them for ice cream and notifying authorities. Suppose the girls made some charge against them?
I guess it is a good thing my kids are all grown up....otherwise I would be blogging from jail.
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