~*~*~
Chooooo! Chooooo!
When I write things on this blog, I usually have an idea of where they'll go when the comments start flowing. There aren't often many surprises, but that wasn't the case Monday.
Let's talk briefly about Monday, then LET IT GO because this post is not intended to rehash my bad behavior, nor the content of Monday's post, but rather some of the comments on Monday's post ...
I was PISSED! I felt "wronged" (I have since had to humble myself a bit) and I was tired of taking the "higher" road. And by "higher" road I mean that the entire situation had sunk to the gutter - the "higher" road was pretty damn low.
I don't regret writing the post and I don't regret opening up the comments, even though they didn't go AT ALL where I thought they would go. Why no regrets? Because I am a little more self-aware than I was Monday, because of that post.
Try to follow me here, this is going to seem disjointed (and probably is), but ... *shrugs*
There has been a lot of attention on the suicide of Tyler Clementi as of late, but the focus has been on the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back (the hidden camera and distribution of the live stream video on a social network) and his sexual orientation, rather than what I believe actually killed him.
What do I believe killed Tyler? People just like snugs, DoggyBloggy and micky-t along with people who chose to do nothing.
It wasn't that single social media event that killed Tyler. It was the ongoing and constant berating, ostracizing and exclusion of Tyler in a "socially acceptable" (i.e. via social media) way that killed him.
Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei face charges for invasion of privacy (don't get me started on the failing of our laws in keeping up with technology) but every single person who watched that live stream and laughed or mocked Tyler, and every single person on the Rutger's Campus who knew what was going on but did nothing, are equally as guilty in Tyler's death.
What I find most disturbing about this story is that had Tyler not died by suicide, this wouldn't have been a story at all. Most people would have considered it just another instance of "harmless" social media jabs because we all know that in social media (facebook, twitter, blogs, comments on news stories, etc.) this behavior has become expected.
Really? Berating people is harmless and has become expected?? Think about that for a minute ...
Be honest. You've done it. I've certainly done it.
I'm not saying you should heap artificial praise anyone - we've seen where the "everyone is a winner" mentality has gotten us - but you don't need to be an ass just for the sake of being an ass, and at the expense of others. Conflict can be constructive.
For example, I received an email from Jay on Monday regarding my post. It was one of the most supportive emails I have ever received. It said things like ...
You might read those lines and think I am being sarcastic when I say it was one of the most supportive emails I have ever received - you'd be wrong.
See? Jay didn't blow sunshine up my ass. He didn't take sides. He didn't berate me. But he did tell it like he saw it. He called me out. He held me accountable.
Jay wasn't trying to embarrass, humiliate or "take me down a notch" like snugs, DoggyBloggy and micky-t were. No, Jay was reminding me that I am a better person than that post indicated. Jay was supportive. Jay did something constructive.
How many times do we see "wrongs" and claim we are taking the high road by not addressing them? How many times do we say to ourselves, "That's too big of a problem for me to do anything about" and walk away? How many times do we do nothing because we are afraid of being wrong or making someone mad at us because we've taken sides?
Do something people! Grow a pair of fucking BALLS and take a stand! Be respectful, but hold people accountable for their unacceptable actions like Jay did for me.
Doing nothing is every bit as wrong as what snugs, DoggyBloggy and micky-t did and continue to do. Doing nothing indicates you see nothing wrong.
We are ALL better than that.
Chooooo! Chooooo!When I write things on this blog, I usually have an idea of where they'll go when the comments start flowing. There aren't often many surprises, but that wasn't the case Monday.
Let's talk briefly about Monday, then LET IT GO because this post is not intended to rehash my bad behavior, nor the content of Monday's post, but rather some of the comments on Monday's post ...
I was PISSED! I felt "wronged" (I have since had to humble myself a bit) and I was tired of taking the "higher" road. And by "higher" road I mean that the entire situation had sunk to the gutter - the "higher" road was pretty damn low.
I don't regret writing the post and I don't regret opening up the comments, even though they didn't go AT ALL where I thought they would go. Why no regrets? Because I am a little more self-aware than I was Monday, because of that post.
Try to follow me here, this is going to seem disjointed (and probably is), but ... *shrugs*
There has been a lot of attention on the suicide of Tyler Clementi as of late, but the focus has been on the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back (the hidden camera and distribution of the live stream video on a social network) and his sexual orientation, rather than what I believe actually killed him.
What do I believe killed Tyler? People just like snugs, DoggyBloggy and micky-t along with people who chose to do nothing.
It wasn't that single social media event that killed Tyler. It was the ongoing and constant berating, ostracizing and exclusion of Tyler in a "socially acceptable" (i.e. via social media) way that killed him.
Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei face charges for invasion of privacy (don't get me started on the failing of our laws in keeping up with technology) but every single person who watched that live stream and laughed or mocked Tyler, and every single person on the Rutger's Campus who knew what was going on but did nothing, are equally as guilty in Tyler's death.
What I find most disturbing about this story is that had Tyler not died by suicide, this wouldn't have been a story at all. Most people would have considered it just another instance of "harmless" social media jabs because we all know that in social media (facebook, twitter, blogs, comments on news stories, etc.) this behavior has become expected.
Really? Berating people is harmless and has become expected?? Think about that for a minute ...
Be honest. You've done it. I've certainly done it.
I'm not saying you should heap artificial praise anyone - we've seen where the "everyone is a winner" mentality has gotten us - but you don't need to be an ass just for the sake of being an ass, and at the expense of others. Conflict can be constructive.
For example, I received an email from Jay on Monday regarding my post. It was one of the most supportive emails I have ever received. It said things like ...
"I think [your post] was ridiculous, childish and low."
and ...
"Seriously, I used to be entertained by you guys but now it's getting old and kinda boring. And stupid."
and finally ...
"Basically, I'm rather disappointed in that blog post. I think it was beneath you."
You might read those lines and think I am being sarcastic when I say it was one of the most supportive emails I have ever received - you'd be wrong.
See? Jay didn't blow sunshine up my ass. He didn't take sides. He didn't berate me. But he did tell it like he saw it. He called me out. He held me accountable.
Jay wasn't trying to embarrass, humiliate or "take me down a notch" like snugs, DoggyBloggy and micky-t were. No, Jay was reminding me that I am a better person than that post indicated. Jay was supportive. Jay did something constructive.
How many times do we see "wrongs" and claim we are taking the high road by not addressing them? How many times do we say to ourselves, "That's too big of a problem for me to do anything about" and walk away? How many times do we do nothing because we are afraid of being wrong or making someone mad at us because we've taken sides?
Do something people! Grow a pair of fucking BALLS and take a stand! Be respectful, but hold people accountable for their unacceptable actions like Jay did for me.
Doing nothing is every bit as wrong as what snugs, DoggyBloggy and micky-t did and continue to do. Doing nothing indicates you see nothing wrong.
We are ALL better than that.
~*~*~
38 comments:
Well in that instance, I believe at the point that I read the post it was closed for comments. Which to me meant you did not want anyone to do or say anything. You just wanted to say your piece and move on. So it now seems odd that you are happy that someone commented on it even if it was in email form??
I disagree with your DO SOMETHING approach. I roll with a "pick your battles" approach. I mean we all know someone who has to get in on every cause and involved in every situation and those people are generally DRAMA.
So I say "pick your battles' And I also say its only wise to get involved when you know exactly what you're getting involved in.
My initial reaction (other than that I was clueless that any of this was going on) was dissapointment because I consider both of you guys "friends" and Im one of these people that just likes everyone to get along and be happy. I don't quite have the backbone of Jay to say the things he said but I do kind of agree with his take to a point.
I also agree to a point with your assesment of social media and even though the example you site is an extreme case there are lessons to be drawn from it. Maybe we can all do a better job of picking our "friends" and do some policing of the bullying.
You know, I went back to Kim's blog to see what my comment was from her posting of this issue and it was "sheesh....please express my sentiments to this person - "lighten the F up and take a chill pill..thank you""
Then I read your post Monday and I guess the silliness and nastiness of 'over the fence' squabbles on the social media just makes me shake my head.
I am not sure this equates with what was done to poor Mr. Clementi...that was more of invasion of privacy in my mind.
Jay is a wise man..that I know
Raquel's World, and I say "pick your battles" is a good option if we are talking about little johnny insisting he wear shorts to school on a snowy, winter day. Otherwise, it's a cop out.
And only get involved when you know exactly what you are getting in to? When do we EVER know exactly what we are getting in to? That sounds like an invitation to do nothing :)
Doc, in real life, everyone does NOT get along. Conflict will occur and conflict is not a bad thing, but how we handle it sometimes is. Conflict means people are thinking.
Jay's position on the matter was VERY well grounded and right on target. It hurt to read what he had to say, but he did it in a way that was helpful, not mean.
Vinny "Bond" Marini, I think the fact that it makes you shake your head is a good thing. After reading Jay's email and taking in some of the comments, I was quite embarrassed at my own involvement in it.
I think the fact that we accept nasty, rude behavior on social media as "harmless entertainment" has EVERYTHING to do with Tyler Clementi.
like i said in my comment on the original post, im glad you wrote it. whether i agree with your position or hers doesnt matter... just the fact that you got tired of being abused and did something about it where most peoples reactions are to let it go, like i did. the hard part is what to do about it? do you take that stand and get dragged into the drama or do you let the people that do it just get away with it... if people have no soul & dont give a shit what others think of them they can get away with whatever they want. and that just isnt right.
I know where Jayman is coming from and I see his point, however, I am never beneath getting low and childish and ripping a person. Of course, that is why many people find me to be an asshole.
As for the Tyler comparison...I think it's a bit of a stretch. Cheers Dana!!
I don't think "pick your battles" is a cop out unless we are talking about deciding not to call the police when your neighbor's house is being robbed or as you watch someone being beaten on the street. In your example of Tyler, yes, someone should have stood up and done something. Agreed. A crime is a crime is a crime. You stand by watching it happen, you may have well been directly involved in it.
Social media has one great and powerful weapon that bullying in real life does NOT have: you can walk away. In Tyler's case, they used social media as a catalyst to bully him for who he is. He had to find out about their tweets and face his roommates - face his peers - face his real life mates. In essence, they used Twtter to virtually depants-ing him in gym class in front of everyone.
We must not confuse what they did to Tyler with some of the back-and-forth drama that goes on between people whose only connection is electronic media. While some of that is cyberstalking, for many of us, we can pretty much disappear online if we wanted to. I think a blogger we all know recently did just that for other reasons.
Also remember you cannot assume people are not doing what Jay did to you to others involved. You cannot assume there are non-public chats about things going on, or emails or private messages on Twitter. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Because, in my case, if I strongly dislike how things are going publicly, I will often take it out of the public eye assuming I feel the person committing the offense is open to hear it. I will not shout at a brick wall.
To compare my comments to what happened to Tyler is more than just a stretch. You chose to blog about your incident, Tyler's privacy was invaded and published for all the world to see without his approval. We have had this discussion before Dana, and my response remains unchanged. You choose to blog about these things in your life and that opens the door for readers to comment, judge, criticize, whatever you want to call it. Funny how you do the same things to grundie's wife, or that other sweet girl who's name escapes me right now..point is you dish it out all the time, and you can be really cruel, you just don't take it too well when you get it back. My comments may be considered harsh, but sometimes you need a brutal response to wake you up and make you look at what you are saying, doing, etc..If you don't like it you could always go private or leave the comments closed. You do have choices ya know, just as we can choose to read or not.
WHAT?!? You reprinted parts of a PRIVATE email on your blog? I'm outraged! I'm appalled! I'm ... other things! hahaha ;-)~
I'm just going to keep coming back every hour or so and see which way the comments are leaning and go with the crowd. Okay, maybe not. ;-)
I AM going to have to go along with the whole Tyler connection being a bit of a stretch.
Also, let me state that had comments been open at the time that I emailed Dana, I still would have gone with the email option rather than putting that all in comments. That's my "style." Other people have their own "style" when it comes to these things.
Clay Perry, letting it go (in my world) is akin to saying it is OK. And right or wrong, I'd rather speak my mind than let others "guess" at what I'm thinking. There will always be those who "get away" with shit, but I believe that if we speak up a little more often, those who can change will.
Matt-Man, like I said, I have no regrets about writing the post the way it was written, my regrets are finding myself in the gutter when I wasn't drunk :)
Is the Tyler comparison a stretch? Yes and no. I mean, the comments left on my blog aren't going to send me over the edge, but allowing people to say whatever without accountability can (and often does) lead to escalation in the behavior. Just because someone doesn't jump off a bridge doesn't mean damage isn't done.
Emmy, I agree, there is a difference between back and forth exclusive to social media, and back and forth that involves social and crosses to the face-to-face interactions between people.
As far as the public versus private conversations, just because people don't know it's happening doesn't mean it suddenly becomes OK. What's that quote? Our character is what we do when we think no one is looking? I'm guilty ...
snugs, You, leaving a comment here, is akin to Emmy's "I will not shout at a brick wall." You can shout all you want, but when you leave a comment here? I become a brick wall.
Fortunately there are many others who leave comments here whose opinions and perspectives I value. THEY help me grow. You are just an ass because you can be, and because you want everyone else to hate me as much as you do.
It's not working ...
Jay, I know you'd have left what you said in the email in the comments section which was why I included it in the post. Really :). Ehhh ... the crowd says I am (once again) making a mountain out of a mole hill. I say we could all benefit by being a little more accountable for what we say in social media.
The comparison to Tyler *is* a stretch, but it all starts out somewhere, stopping it early is the key, and we can all do that better! Well ... maybe not you, but most of the rest of us!
"... we can all do that better! Well ... maybe not you, but most of the rest of us!"
Certainly I can do better too, and have never made any claims to the contrary. Also, in my comment I said I WOULDN'T have posted my email in comments. At least not in it's entirety.
My problem w/ the Tyler comparison is that he hasn't just been bullied in social media, he and all other gays have been bullied by society in general. His whole life he has had preachers, politicians, community "leaders," teachers and people he thought were his friends tell him that he's an abomination or something less than human because he was gay. That goes way beyond people who love to troll comment sections on blogs.
Jay, GAHHH! Just to clarify I was trying to be funny with that "maybe not you" thing but left off the ;) Sorry about that!
And I agree with what you are saying regarding trolling blogs, but many of the folks who do that move it into other realms of social media, like facebook and twitter.
I wasn't trying to minimize Tyler's struggles, but rather attempting to point out that there were many people along the way who could have done SOMETHING but didn't.
I emailed you my thoughts about Monday's post. I don't know the background, but the whole things felt a little "middle school" to me. Not specifically your post, but The Whole thing.
We all know there are bullies out there in our blog world. I can think of one or two who I consider bullies, who I'd bet you wouldn't. But in my opinion, when you know you can write something hurtful or nasty about someone and get your readers to agree with you, it is a form of bullying.
Though I can't make the leap that bullying "causes" suicide, it is clearly a factor that effects all of us. What happened to Tyler was disgusting and it breaks my heart. I can't believe anyone would sink so low as to invade someones privacy in such a manner. I have spoken out that I think the roommate and Ms. Wei deserve much harsher charges than they are currently facing. But to say they caused Tyler's death is a stretch I can't logically make. Tyler's death was a shame - a sin - a tragedy beyond reason. But in the end, it was caused by Tyler.
Until you started writing these posts, I was generally unaware of the drama. Serves me right for reading in Google Reader and generally not coming back to check comments at the end of the day.
I haven't read all the above comments...or the comments from Mondays. I've been doing most of my weblog reading via Reader lately.
But I did go over and read the other posts cause (and only because) she is a Giants fan. I also read about her aunt and uncle in the San Bruno fire...I know people who lost homes there too.
And what occurs to me is the age thing.
Now...I've been "The Cool Mom" all my adult life. A huge portion of my Facebook friends are actually friends of my kids.
But I gotta tell ya...at 51 years...and with my kids at 28, 22 and 20 (and The Teamster's at 27 and 29) your go between with the other blogger is sounding an awful lot like the communication gap is also a generation gap.
Both seem to have valid points..and both make a statement or two with your head up your ass. But you aren't ever gonna see eye to eye on all this.
And seems to me these days...everyone wants to take sides...partially to be the ole "Member of the Tribe" and partially to be able to cross swords with someone else.
just sayin'
I don't know why you claim that I hate you because I don't, and I refuse to join you in name calling. However it is amusing that you want everyone to do as you say but not as you do..
I don't know why you claim that I hate you because I don't, and I refuse to join you in name calling. However it is amusing that you want everyone to do as you say but not as you do..
I did not have an issue with your post on Monday. Sometimes you decide that enough is enough and you let your feelings out, and on some level it is your blog and you can write what you want.
However, by posting the piece the drama continues, and drama is not something you profess to want.
The internet is still an untamed place where people make their own rules.
Ha...I just have to say something unrelated here...
Snugs made me laugh when she said that she doesn't hate you. Maybe she doesn't, but she uses you.
Ol' Snugs uses you to make herself feel better about herself. Always has, always will...or use someone else to do so.
Sorry...off point, but Snugs is a third rate bully who can't hang with the big boys, but reads them everyday. And yeah, Snugs, ya do.
Man, that was fun!!
Cheers Dana!!
Karen, Yeah ... honestly? I can't make the leap that Tyler's death was caused by Tyler. I mean, in the simplest sense it was, but I can't help but feel that whenever anyone takes their own life, we (collectively, as society) have been a significant part of he problem.
Maggie, drama is everywhere, it just seems to fester and to be more accessible in social media.
katherine, I would agree that age played a part in this - primarily me not acting my age.
snugs, *shakes head* This has nothing to do with you having my "best interest" in mind. Your comments are purely self-serving.
Another Suburban Mom, I've come to the conclusion that my writing just sucks some times.
This post had nothing to do with the subject matter from Monday and everything to do with some of the comments (which were about me being a rain wreck, NOT about the post subject matter). Obviously I failed in communicating that point in this post.
Matt-Man, I'm guessing I'm not the only special one ... at least I *hope* not! What's funny is I know snugs is not as perfect as she expects me to be, because if she was, I'd actually like her!
I don't know anything about the back story...but I agree that you can be supportive and honest at the same time. However, calling someone out just to be mean...not gonna fall in that category.
I don't know anything about the back story...but I agree that you can be supportive and honest at the same time. However, calling someone out just to be mean...not gonna fall in that category.
Just stopped by to say hello. Hello.
Dana, I took NO stand at all, because as you know, I have been away from here for quite a while; had no idea what was going on; had no idea who that other person is.
That being said, I really don't think I've ever berated someone, put someone down, or was mean to someone in blog land or Facebook. Yea, I bitch about people, but those people don't read my blog.
Anyway, glad Jay was able to help you out!
Can't believe "I" contributed to the DRAMA, that is Dana.
I finally grew the BALLS to say what I really thought and you called me out. Good enough!
Gina, and that was REALLY what my post was about - being an ass just because you can and with no interest in doing anything other than putting someone down.
Mike, *WAVES*
Bina, again, I didn't WANT anyone to take my side (my original reason for NOT opening comments) and today's post was more about those who left comments not in support of the other blogger involved, but rather comments meant to do nothing other than tear me down. Had they been supporting Kim? I'd have been cool!
you've always been in the DoggyBloggy/snugs camp, it's just in the past you were smart enough to not be so blatant about it. Guess that changed :)
You called them being REAL! Thought that was what you were asking for.
No sugar coating.
micky, I've come to the conclusion that I will never be able to figure out what she wants, she talks out of both sides of her mouth or maybe she has multiple personalities. One minute she wants real, the next she claims she would not have a problem with me if I was perfect. But sadly King Matthew has already ruled that I am not perfect so it must surely be so. I think I can speak for doggy on this, us misfit imperfect trolls welcome you to the other side of the tracks, we have a hell of a lot more fun than those drama filled attention seeking lying cheatin ho's!
snugs, let me be help you out - I WANT YOU TO GO AWAY!
No need to keep coming back trying to figure it out - I just made it abundantly clear!
What's your excuse now?
My excuse Dana? Gosh I didn't realize we need an excuse to read or comment on an open blog. Afterall you are the one that has chosen to put your life stories out there for everyone to read and respond to.But since you have asked I will oblige because I am just a people pleaser like that. I guess like some of the others I am also an ambulance chaser at heart. It is human nature to stare at a train wreck.Some will stop and help, some will even stop to gawk and take pictures. Just think of me as one of those people that is curious enough to stop and watch. I am sure your little matt the ass kisser will say that curiosity killed the cat, but then again, I've also got nine lives. His blog/stories failed to hold my interest months ago, so now he has to come to yours to try to insult me.Your blog/stories Dana, I still find entertaining and they just suck me in like a good book, I want to see the ending. So I guess if you want me to go away you will just have to stop stimulating my curiosity like this.
Ooooops I almost forgot, you mentioned something the other day about how you hoped you were not the only one. I just have to tell you, you are. I know this will make you feel extra special, but of all the blogs that I read, yours is the only one that is just..wait, what would be the proper description? A diary blog? A life blog? All the other blogs I read are cooking or home decorating blogs. Since I became bored with Matt's, yours is the only blog I read on a regular basis that is not there to share a talent or a hobby or a passion, unless of course, you consider drama your passion, lol! So let me make it 'abundantly clear" sweetie, I will keep reading until you are no longer here! So cheers baby :)
By The Way, can those calling Dana a train wreck please stop already. While Dana is a flawed human being, as am I and anyone who is human, I think that Dana is no where near train wreck status!
fifty cents a day - for fifty cents a day (paypal) I might shut up - give me fifty cents a day and you and your wrecked train can cheer and wreck all over the place and I wont come back - but dont miss a payment - if not I am gonna keep on coming here for free - the the toilet that just wont flush! THIS IS REAL.
This "train wreck" shit? It's as old as me calling you a troll. Try to find a new condescending descriptor, m-kay??
You are ... nahhh ... your words speak quite loudly without my help ...
Comment away. There is nothing more gratifying to me than you showing all of my readers just what you are all about.
And every time you use the words "train wreck"? I'll just figure you are too embarrassed to tell everyone how wonderful you think I am!
Cheers!
I'm always amazed by the mean people who are so "PROUD" to be mean. I posted today in response to what I read in your post, then read these comments.
As someone who did really wanted to be dead, I can tell you. Mean people, you are part of the problem. You may not be mean to me, but it does matter. It matters to that person.
"Sticks and stones" is bullshit. Words do matter. They hold great power.
You get to choose in this life. You can either build someone up or tear them down. Your choice.
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