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Freedom of speech. It's something I hold near and dear, never forgetting its importance, but not always liking the message it brings.
The American Humanist Association, as part of a coalition of eight atheist organizations, purchased a month-long campaign that puts their posters in a dozen busy subway stations throughout Manhattan.
The ads are simple. A single question written over the image of a blue sky speckled with white clouds: "A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?"
The campaign, funded by an anonymous donor, coincided (do you suppose that was a miracle?) with the Tuesday release of Harvard University's Humanist Chaplain Greg Epstein's book, Good Without God: What a Billion Non-Religious People Do Believe.
My first reaction to the ad campaign, and the concept, was very negative. Then I watched Epstein's promotional video:
As a Christian who has traveled the atheist/agnostic road more than once in my life, the concept of pursuing good in the world without relying on or seeking guidance from God is ... well ... interesting. I know an awful lot of people who don't seek or rely on God, yet they do good. They volunteer. They have compassion (there's that word again). They sometimes sacrifice their own lives for the good of others.
I also know some people who claim to follow Jesus but do little more than serve themselves. They lack compassion. They are more about appearance than action. They use God as an excuse to do nothing. I'd say this is fairly good evidence that people can be good without God and not so good with God.
Epstein claims his book, and message, are intended to create dialog across the atheist/believer divide. I must admit, I'd rather see people be good without God than bad with or without God, but that is also why I think his argument shouldn't be against God, but rather against people.
In fact, it's that concept - that my problem with religion wasn't an issue with God, but an issue with people - that brought me back to a belief in God. But that stance - one against people rather than against God - would be far less controversial and probably wouldn't sell many books now, would it?
Tell me what you think. Is Epstein's message a good one (pun intended) or one that is a threat to the concept of God? How do you feel about evangelizing, whether that be evangelizing against God or for God? Is being "good" good enough?
~*~*~*~*~
Freedom of speech. It's something I hold near and dear, never forgetting its importance, but not always liking the message it brings.The American Humanist Association, as part of a coalition of eight atheist organizations, purchased a month-long campaign that puts their posters in a dozen busy subway stations throughout Manhattan.
The ads are simple. A single question written over the image of a blue sky speckled with white clouds: "A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?"
The campaign, funded by an anonymous donor, coincided (do you suppose that was a miracle?) with the Tuesday release of Harvard University's Humanist Chaplain Greg Epstein's book, Good Without God: What a Billion Non-Religious People Do Believe.
My first reaction to the ad campaign, and the concept, was very negative. Then I watched Epstein's promotional video:
As a Christian who has traveled the atheist/agnostic road more than once in my life, the concept of pursuing good in the world without relying on or seeking guidance from God is ... well ... interesting. I know an awful lot of people who don't seek or rely on God, yet they do good. They volunteer. They have compassion (there's that word again). They sometimes sacrifice their own lives for the good of others.
I also know some people who claim to follow Jesus but do little more than serve themselves. They lack compassion. They are more about appearance than action. They use God as an excuse to do nothing. I'd say this is fairly good evidence that people can be good without God and not so good with God.
Epstein claims his book, and message, are intended to create dialog across the atheist/believer divide. I must admit, I'd rather see people be good without God than bad with or without God, but that is also why I think his argument shouldn't be against God, but rather against people.
In fact, it's that concept - that my problem with religion wasn't an issue with God, but an issue with people - that brought me back to a belief in God. But that stance - one against people rather than against God - would be far less controversial and probably wouldn't sell many books now, would it?
Tell me what you think. Is Epstein's message a good one (pun intended) or one that is a threat to the concept of God? How do you feel about evangelizing, whether that be evangelizing against God or for God? Is being "good" good enough?
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22 comments:
...I don't think it's a question of whether Epstein's message (or anyone's, for that matter) is a good one or not...it's all food for thought and what could be wrong with that?...
I always borrow a line from The Italian Job when the subject is religion. "I trust everyone. It's the devil inside them I don't trust." I have my issues with organized religion as well. My belief is now independent of that. That is, the people I see in organized religion today are in it for themselves. Yes, true, the message is still there but what are they doing with the message when people in their own neighborhoods are still starving and homeless as they pass them in their brand new Bentley? So I have adopted my own personal relationship with God independent of organized religion. Of course, I studied Theology and Greek history so I have a more clearer view of what religion is about and whence it came. I could go on but this could be a blog onto itself. Epstein may have drawn some interesting parallelisms, but how many people on either side of the fence will take the time to read is the question. Both argue that their point is the right view. I seek balance so I avoid the extremes. Know this, Christianity is not the oldest religion.
I do think that being a good, moral person is good enough. I am a Catholic, but I don't think you need to have my God (or any God) in your life to be a good person. My relationship with God makes me feel good and I maintain that relationship for personal, selfish reasons. God and I have had some rough patches, but I think I was still a good person when my faith was not as strong.
And I believe in mutual conversation about faith or lack thereof, but I do not believe in Evangelizing or pushing my views on anyone else.
In the end, I really don't think it will matter. God does what he wants, when he wants regardless of what we do or say. I really do not think that it matters to God at all if we are good to each other or not.
I believe that he desires us to be good to each other. I think you are right on that religion is really not about God Himself but more about people...about fellowship...about being together and trying to understand one another.
I think Atheists are funny. I know a few of them who's favorite catch phrases are, "OMG" or when they are angry "Jesus Christ!" or "For the Love of Christ!"
What *is* God?
I think that is the more important question.
The only thing any of us really know, is that God is something that exists in the minds of humans, not animals or plants or anything else on the planet thats alive.
To a lot of us there doesn't have to be an answer to why we're all alive on this planet. Get over it.
Live your life and be good or live and be bad, pick one.
I'm good without whatever you think your God is.
I think the book is probably a rationalization of not living a religious life. It isn't no more a threat to "God" than the intolerant bigots who preach hate in the name of their God.
Phfrankie Bondo, what could be wrong with thinking? Surely you jest *wink*
Shiny Rod, I think everyone's experiences with organized religion are different. I've been in a couple of religious environments that had me swearing off God as I walked through the door. Fortunately I've seen the other side as well.
Quite honestly, I have no issue with people believing something is right for them that I might disagree with. I will, however, be willing to share with them what's really right :)
Karen, moral? Like Golden Rule moral? Or like drink-the-koolaid moral? I do believe you can be a good person without God, but I also believe that it isn't "good enough" to just be a good person.
The evangelizing is a slippery slope. I see no problem with providing a point of view - sometimes an opposing point of view - but I've also seen it taken too far.
There is not a right or wrong to this question in my mind.
Do you have to be a part of an organized religion to believe in God? I think not.
If you are part of an organized religion does that absolve you of your wrong-doings? I think not.
You can be with God and be a compassionate loving person or you can be scum...
You can be without God and be a compassionate loving person or you can be scum...
I believe there is a supreme being - a God...and I believe the right thing to do is keep your belief close to you.
Joker_SATX, now that's an interesting perspective. I think it *does* matter to God how we treat others.
Micky-T, I would agree - a belief in God does require faith, but I would also argue that God is fact based, but that's another blog post. And let's hope more people pick living their life to be good!
Professor Fate, I would agree. It's an interesting topic as there has been an upward trend of what are called the "unchurched" going back to church.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to view this at work.
But I think I have mentioned before that many people I know who proclaim to be christians, are some of the .... hmmm, what word do I use? Well, let's just say they gossip, they judge, they are hollier-than-thou, and they are completel and utter hypocrites.
However, I know many people who believe in God, read the bible but don't go to church, and they are kind, caring, giving, and compassionate.
I don't want any hate mail or comments so I'm leaving it at that. But I'm gonna go home at lunch time and get my laptop so I'll view it then.
When you actually get down to the gist of this argument Dana, what you're really looking at here ISN'T about God, as it's about people.
If you were to check all the major religions, God (in all forms) is infallable.
Yet the ones that continue to need salvation, redemption, rescue, or pity are people.
I'm like you. I've seen agnostic folks who are more Christ-like than many preachers and pastors that I've had the opportunity to meet.
I've also met the self-proclaimed Christian who has done more to destroy a young and growing church than any Satanist could ever hope to accomplish.
So the argument is really about people. Is his message valid? Yes. Could it be true? Yes. Does that mean I agree with his viewpoint?
Meh.
I'll take what I like, and leave the rest for someone else.
that God is fact based
excuse me?
Throw me a hint...how?
I don't call myself religious but like to think I am spiritual.
I have seen and been treated badly by people who think themselves to be highly religious.
I think some religions breed massive amounts of hate.
They claim they read the bible yet rarely follow the "love thy neighbor", they would rather keep things for themselves then actually show the love that Jesus showed to those lesser.
But I digress.
The think the root of the matter is, we get into trouble when we start telling each other whose God they should be worshiping.
If you're a good person, do good, treat others the way you want to be treated then it shouldn't matter to who or if you say your prayers at night.
If a person isn't self-motivated to be a good person, I don't think God will be able to motivate them either.
A lot of people do a lot of really bad things in the name of God. God didn't make them do it though. They have a perverted view of God and use him to rationalize hatred and violence.
As an atheist, I've been following the American Humanist Association's campaign closely, especially because they chose some very religious southern states for their billboards and, of course, it stirred up controversy.
I have spent many an evening reading the latest op-ed piece from a Christian-minded organization/publication and the comments that followed, and finding myself completely insulted and baffled at this concept that atheists are immoral, corrupt, inherently bad people because we don't believe in or follow God or a higher power.
The idea that I can do good all by myself, without being led by God or because I fear burning in hell if I don't pull my heavenly weight is so ridiculous to me, but so many Christians believe that it must be impossible for me to be a good person and do good things and be an asset to my community. And they couldn't be any further from the truth -- I won't list why I'm a "good person," but I am confident that I am -- I'm a good mother, I'm a good friend, I'm a good community member, hell, I was even a good wife for a long time without any reward for my efforts (lol).
I like the AHA's campaign, and I think it is an important one -- the demystifying of atheists and other non-believers. What I usually find is that most non-believers go to great lengths to learn about religion, explore spirituality, talk openly with others about their beliefs (or lack there of) on religion and spirituality and God, but that many, many Christians do not make the same efforts in learning about why non-believers believe as they do, and many Christians I've encountered in my personal life have been extremely quick to judge my beliefs, rather than take the time to try to understand them, regardless of whether I extend them that courtesy or not.
I am glad you posted this because I didn't realize this book was coming out. I'm very anxious to read it, and can think of a number of people I'd like to share it with. Sadly, I believe that more non-believers will pick this book up than will Christians and other believers.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Hitting up Amazon right now.
Bond, ahhh ... but see? All of your thoughts indicate there *is* a God. There seems to be wide spread difficulty in separating God from organized religion, and I would agree with you that they are entirely different topics.
Bina, it's a funny thing. If one proclaims to be Christian, we judge them far more harshly. Quite frankly, I think it would be far easier to go the way of being agnostic or atheist. The social expectations are less.
Jormengrund, agreed! It's about people being "good" or not "good" and whether their ability to make that choice revolves around God. I don't think that it does, yet I also believe (as I mentioned earlier) that just being "good" isn't good enough.
Micky-T, I'll do you one better - I'll do a post! There is an expectation that the Bible is a fairy tale. I've done quite a bit of research into scientific contradictions to creationism and it's quite fascinating!
Kim, rumor has it a lot of people like that "spiritual" designator because it absolves them of a tie to organized religion. Again, I think there is a significant difference between religion and God, as odd as that sounds.
Jay, oh yes! Actions done in the name of God (in many forms) have caused far more death and destruction than any other motivator.
And I'm starting to wonder about you and Kim - seems you are starting to comment on the blog one right after the other now. Hmmm ...
Dharma, I'm actually glad that you piped in! I found the information on the American Humanist Association's website to be intriguing, not that I'm planning on changing my views, but because I'm not sure we spend near enough time on looking at "non-religion" as we do looking at religion.
Kind of interesting...right before reading your post and viewing this video, I watched a video of Elizabeth Smart's interview on Today. If anybody has any doubt that people should be able to have their own beliefs, they should see and listen to that young woman talk. Incredible! And pretty much anybody who is familiar with her story knows she comes from a religious family. Hmmm.
I basically agree with what you and a lot of your commenters have said. People are people; some are good, some are asshats, some fall somewhere in between. I know some Christians who definitely fall into the asshat category; intolerant, judgmental, holier-than-thou, etc. I'm sure that I know some non-believers (although, if I know any, they haven't shared their non-believerness). Frankly, I don't care; I don't really think personal beliefs have to be a big topic of conversation. Or maybe that's just me, because what I believe and my spirituality is very personal for me. To me, it's irrelevant if a person is a believer, a non-believer, an I'm-not-sure person, or if they waiver between and/all. If I like them, I like them. Maybe my world is small, but I just don't think this needs to be a big public issue. Of course, if you buy a big billboard like that in the Bible Belt, you're openin' up a can of whoop ass. But I assume that was on purpose--more press for the book.
I've always liked The Golden Rule. It's simple, it's to the point, and it's pretty much universal.
I think being/doing good is enough.
Many of the Christian arguments have never made a lick of sense to me....although I call myself one. :)
If you want to really stir up Christians...tell them that many of their beliefs descend from paganism. That really flips their brains.
<---minored in religion
I do believe there *is* a God ...I am glad you got my point that believing in God does not mean walking into a building...or a hut...or a cave.or anywhere with a group of people so you can stand there and say "Yes, they see me here, they know I believe"
Thus my point. I don't tie myself to a religion because of the very unchristian like attitudes religion can bring out in people.
Does this mean I don't believe in God? Absolutely not!
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